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	<title>Comments on: Could The State Exist If Property Rights Were Impossible To Violate?</title>
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	<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/07/01/could-the-state-exist-if-property-rights-were-impossible-to-violate/</link>
	<description>Hate The State</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 24 May 2013 13:17:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: masculineffort</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/07/01/could-the-state-exist-if-property-rights-were-impossible-to-violate/#comment-11808</link>
		<dc:creator>masculineffort</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=9006#comment-11808</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If someone comes with a Digital currency, say DigCoin where the government cannot find out who is transacting in it, then yes! I agree that the state is doomed as even law abiding people will start using DigCoin. But until that point, the state can always limit the use of Digital currency by imposing draconian penalties on people caught transacting in it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If someone comes with a Digital currency, say DigCoin where the government cannot find out who is transacting in it, then yes! I agree that the state is doomed as even law abiding people will start using DigCoin. But until that point, the state can always limit the use of Digital currency by imposing draconian penalties on people caught transacting in it.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/07/01/could-the-state-exist-if-property-rights-were-impossible-to-violate/#comment-8648</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jul 2011 00:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=9006#comment-8648</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;...in the absence of State welfare, private citizens can be expected to donate at least 2% of GDP to charities, which would more than cover the expenses of the poorest US citizens...&quot;   

That should be correct, and may indeed be correct except we first need to have a public discussion about who is truly indigent and should be entitled to help and who is sufficiently well of they should be required to carry their own weight.  The political-dependency-monger industry has steadily ratcheted upwards the definition of who is &quot;poor&quot;, and we now have children receiving free meals at school because we politically define them as being &quot;at risk&quot; when their parents have incomes far in excess of the poverty level.  

Even the &quot;poverty level&quot; itself is so high as to give us poor people who are likely to live in air conditioned comfort in the summer, who have a color TV, a microwave oven, a washer and at least one automobile.  At this level their health care, rent, food and even cell phone use is either fully or partially subsidized.  The National Center for Policy Analysis even showed that the average &quot;poor&quot; person in the US has more living space in their homes than the average middle class person in Europe.

In each of the last three tax years, Americans donated about $300 billion to &quot;charity&quot; as the tax code defines it.  That is roughly $1,000 per capita.  If we limit our definition of who is &quot;poor&quot; to the lower 10%, that equates to about $10,000 per person, or $40,000 per family of four, in pure cash.  It all pivots around a simple question of humanity and civics: what do we owe a person who cannot earn enough to feed, clothe and house themselves?  If we owe them anything above an amount to cover the bare necessities of life, can their be any consideration to the broader economic and social consequences?  In particular, I refer to what happens to the general willingness to work, and conduct ones self in a careful and prudent manner when government stands by to give us too many things for free when we claim we cannot work?   I see this as an employer when applicants for clerical positions tell me they would rather continue to collect their unemployment than to come to work for me.  

Lastly, State-run welfare disconnects the recipient of the aid from the person providing it.  The &quot;benefit&quot; becomes a right as defined in the rules.  A person who really needs more due to some unique issue cannot get more and a person who doesn&#039;t need as much gets the same as everyone else.  When is the last time anyone receiving aid said thank you to the people who paid his bills?  Worse, the politician gets to position himself as a broker between the parties.  Vote for me and I will see that your benefits are not cut.  Vote for me and I will not raise your taxes as much as my opponent promises to do.   Our present system invites corruption at many levels.  Its fruit is mostly rotten, at least if you judge by how many young black women have children without the benefit of being married, and how many of those children later end up in jail.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;in the absence of State welfare, private citizens can be expected to donate at least 2% of GDP to charities, which would more than cover the expenses of the poorest US citizens&#8230;&#8221;   </p>
<p>That should be correct, and may indeed be correct except we first need to have a public discussion about who is truly indigent and should be entitled to help and who is sufficiently well of they should be required to carry their own weight.  The political-dependency-monger industry has steadily ratcheted upwards the definition of who is &#8220;poor&#8221;, and we now have children receiving free meals at school because we politically define them as being &#8220;at risk&#8221; when their parents have incomes far in excess of the poverty level.  </p>
<p>Even the &#8220;poverty level&#8221; itself is so high as to give us poor people who are likely to live in air conditioned comfort in the summer, who have a color TV, a microwave oven, a washer and at least one automobile.  At this level their health care, rent, food and even cell phone use is either fully or partially subsidized.  The National Center for Policy Analysis even showed that the average &#8220;poor&#8221; person in the US has more living space in their homes than the average middle class person in Europe.</p>
<p>In each of the last three tax years, Americans donated about $300 billion to &#8220;charity&#8221; as the tax code defines it.  That is roughly $1,000 per capita.  If we limit our definition of who is &#8220;poor&#8221; to the lower 10%, that equates to about $10,000 per person, or $40,000 per family of four, in pure cash.  It all pivots around a simple question of humanity and civics: what do we owe a person who cannot earn enough to feed, clothe and house themselves?  If we owe them anything above an amount to cover the bare necessities of life, can their be any consideration to the broader economic and social consequences?  In particular, I refer to what happens to the general willingness to work, and conduct ones self in a careful and prudent manner when government stands by to give us too many things for free when we claim we cannot work?   I see this as an employer when applicants for clerical positions tell me they would rather continue to collect their unemployment than to come to work for me.  </p>
<p>Lastly, State-run welfare disconnects the recipient of the aid from the person providing it.  The &#8220;benefit&#8221; becomes a right as defined in the rules.  A person who really needs more due to some unique issue cannot get more and a person who doesn&#8217;t need as much gets the same as everyone else.  When is the last time anyone receiving aid said thank you to the people who paid his bills?  Worse, the politician gets to position himself as a broker between the parties.  Vote for me and I will see that your benefits are not cut.  Vote for me and I will not raise your taxes as much as my opponent promises to do.   Our present system invites corruption at many levels.  Its fruit is mostly rotten, at least if you judge by how many young black women have children without the benefit of being married, and how many of those children later end up in jail.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Suede</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/07/01/could-the-state-exist-if-property-rights-were-impossible-to-violate/#comment-8622</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Suede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=9006#comment-8622</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[1. The government can&#039;t force people to use US dollars in lieu of Bitcoins any more than it can force people to quit doing drugs.  ie. they can make it illegal, but that isn&#039;t going to make it impossible to do business in Bitcoins.

2.  The Bitcoin network would immediately know if someone was creating bogus coins.  All the coins ever created are tracked and part of the public ledger.  Steps could be taken to mitigate this, but the reality is the encryption algo used to create the coins has never been broken.   The worst case scenario is a double spending attack by someone who manages to gain more than 50% of the processing power of the entire network.  The network would see such an attack occurring.

3. In relation to the second claim, the computing power necessary to break the Bitcoin encryption does not exist yet.  It is simply impossible for someone to hack the system and inflate the currency.  Even if they did, the network would see such an attack occurring.

A sophisticated double spending attack is possible with a tremendous amount of computing power, but actual inflation of the currency by creating bogus coins is simply not possible.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. The government can&#8217;t force people to use US dollars in lieu of Bitcoins any more than it can force people to quit doing drugs.  ie. they can make it illegal, but that isn&#8217;t going to make it impossible to do business in Bitcoins.</p>
<p>2.  The Bitcoin network would immediately know if someone was creating bogus coins.  All the coins ever created are tracked and part of the public ledger.  Steps could be taken to mitigate this, but the reality is the encryption algo used to create the coins has never been broken.   The worst case scenario is a double spending attack by someone who manages to gain more than 50% of the processing power of the entire network.  The network would see such an attack occurring.</p>
<p>3. In relation to the second claim, the computing power necessary to break the Bitcoin encryption does not exist yet.  It is simply impossible for someone to hack the system and inflate the currency.  Even if they did, the network would see such an attack occurring.</p>
<p>A sophisticated double spending attack is possible with a tremendous amount of computing power, but actual inflation of the currency by creating bogus coins is simply not possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark L</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/07/01/could-the-state-exist-if-property-rights-were-impossible-to-violate/#comment-8621</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 15:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=9006#comment-8621</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[...my apologies for the typos.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;my apologies for the typos.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Mark L</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/07/01/could-the-state-exist-if-property-rights-were-impossible-to-violate/#comment-8620</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 15:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=9006#comment-8620</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I absolutely love the idea, but my initial thought is that the devil is in the details.
 
First, couldn’t the Government still force most parties to use fiat Government currency, under penalty of law?  For example, couldn’t they force employers to pay salaries (which would have taxes withheld) in USD, force businesses to sell only in USD, etc.?  Sure, I could probably go online and buy much of what I want or need using Bitcoin or similar, but much I would also have to get from the local supermarket or hardware store which is forced to accept only USD.  I’m having trouble envisioning how this would work in actual practice.  
 
Second, what about security of the new digital currency?  Sure, the Government might not be able to tax it, but if, as you acknowledge, they can shut it down, or make it’s use very difficult, or somehow track my transactions, isn’t that almost as good for them, since we’d have to default back to something that is taxable (commodities or USD)?
 
Third, what about third parties cracking the system and creating millions of dollars in digital wealth for themselves, inflating the money supply, or causing similar disruptions?  Might this make the system just “not worth the trouble) for users, who would then default back to a taxable medium of exchange?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I absolutely love the idea, but my initial thought is that the devil is in the details.<br />
 <br />
First, couldn’t the Government still force most parties to use fiat Government currency, under penalty of law?  For example, couldn’t they force employers to pay salaries (which would have taxes withheld) in USD, force businesses to sell only in USD, etc.?  Sure, I could probably go online and buy much of what I want or need using Bitcoin or similar, but much I would also have to get from the local supermarket or hardware store which is forced to accept only USD.  I’m having trouble envisioning how this would work in actual practice. <br />
 <br />
Second, what about security of the new digital currency?  Sure, the Government might not be able to tax it, but if, as you acknowledge, they can shut it down, or make it’s use very difficult, or somehow track my transactions, isn’t that almost as good for them, since we’d have to default back to something that is taxable (commodities or USD)?<br />
 <br />
Third, what about third parties cracking the system and creating millions of dollars in digital wealth for themselves, inflating the money supply, or causing similar disruptions?  Might this make the system just “not worth the trouble) for users, who would then default back to a taxable medium of exchange?</p>
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		<title>By: Revolutionary Politics &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Could The State Exist If Property Rights Were Impossible To Violate?</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/07/01/could-the-state-exist-if-property-rights-were-impossible-to-violate/#comment-8558</link>
		<dc:creator>Revolutionary Politics &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Could The State Exist If Property Rights Were Impossible To Violate?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 16:06:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=9006#comment-8558</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Source: Libertarian News [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Source: Libertarian News [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bitman</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/07/01/could-the-state-exist-if-property-rights-were-impossible-to-violate/#comment-8556</link>
		<dc:creator>Bitman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 09:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=9006#comment-8556</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[???]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>???</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/07/01/could-the-state-exist-if-property-rights-were-impossible-to-violate/#comment-8545</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jul 2011 04:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=9006#comment-8545</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I long for the day when this happens.  I only hope I live to see it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I long for the day when this happens.  I only hope I live to see it.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Freeman</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/07/01/could-the-state-exist-if-property-rights-were-impossible-to-violate/#comment-8544</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jul 2011 02:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=9006#comment-8544</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[+1]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>+1</p>
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