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	<title>Comments on: Logical Proofs of Infinite External Consciousness</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/</link>
	<description>Hate The State</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 20:58:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Skywalker</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/#comment-11926</link>
		<dc:creator>Skywalker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 May 2013 08:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=11978#comment-11926</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[People get fat, smoke and drive too fast and are not all PhDs because they HAVE free wIll.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People get fat, smoke and drive too fast and are not all PhDs because they HAVE free wIll.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce Thorne</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/#comment-11722</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Thorne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Mar 2013 00:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=11978#comment-11722</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[it&#039;s not zero, it APPROACHES zero, you&#039;re both right in a sense, you really need to not stick to that gun of it IS zero because that&#039;s just going to polarize the argument]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it&#8217;s not zero, it APPROACHES zero, you&#8217;re both right in a sense, you really need to not stick to that gun of it IS zero because that&#8217;s just going to polarize the argument</p>
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		<title>By: Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/#comment-11519</link>
		<dc:creator>Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2012 05:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=11978#comment-11519</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=decision-making-in-brain

http://healthland.time.com/2012/09/04/making-choices-how-your-brain-decides/

Some reading on neuroscience discussing the more &#039;top-down&#039; look at brain functions during decision making. The gulf between the regions of the brain responsible for function (top-down) and the individual neurons and biochemistry that determines what the neural networking is going to end up forming at the large scale (bottom-up) is so vast that to argue that determinism makes your choices meaningless is trite. 

The concept of free-will evolved in philosophy before the brain was valued for what it is, an incredibly complex machine. To say it does not determine what you do physically avoids the fact that without your brain you physically do not have the machinery to create your thoughts and actions. You are your brain.

AND this a theological non-issue as most interpretations of metaphysical existence in Christianity, the only people that seem to argue about this ill-defined concept of free-will, actually require your physical body to become immortal and join with your spirit in any possible afterlife to be a complete entity. The idea of infinity coming into the equation probably has to do with the idea of eternity, that is we are 3D beings in a 4D world (moving through a dimension of time), eternal beings see all possible 4D worlds and thus we have &#039;free-will&#039; to choose our actions that collapse this world into one of those possible 4D outcomes, which are infinite. You cannot know which universe you live in until you act and observe.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=decision-making-in-brain" rel="nofollow">http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=decision-making-in-brain</a></p>
<p><a href="http://healthland.time.com/2012/09/04/making-choices-how-your-brain-decides/" rel="nofollow">http://healthland.time.com/2012/09/04/making-choices-how-your-brain-decides/</a></p>
<p>Some reading on neuroscience discussing the more &#8216;top-down&#8217; look at brain functions during decision making. The gulf between the regions of the brain responsible for function (top-down) and the individual neurons and biochemistry that determines what the neural networking is going to end up forming at the large scale (bottom-up) is so vast that to argue that determinism makes your choices meaningless is trite. </p>
<p>The concept of free-will evolved in philosophy before the brain was valued for what it is, an incredibly complex machine. To say it does not determine what you do physically avoids the fact that without your brain you physically do not have the machinery to create your thoughts and actions. You are your brain.</p>
<p>AND this a theological non-issue as most interpretations of metaphysical existence in Christianity, the only people that seem to argue about this ill-defined concept of free-will, actually require your physical body to become immortal and join with your spirit in any possible afterlife to be a complete entity. The idea of infinity coming into the equation probably has to do with the idea of eternity, that is we are 3D beings in a 4D world (moving through a dimension of time), eternal beings see all possible 4D worlds and thus we have &#8216;free-will&#8217; to choose our actions that collapse this world into one of those possible 4D outcomes, which are infinite. You cannot know which universe you live in until you act and observe.</p>
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		<title>By: Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/#comment-11518</link>
		<dc:creator>Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2012 01:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=11978#comment-11518</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Niclas is right. Bee colonies don&#039;t have free will, but they make choices as a colony in much the same way brains do. When choosing where to build a new hive, single bees will return to the colony with a direction to a suitable location to build, and an estimate of how well the location fits the criteria for a hive. They store and transmit this by turning and stopping in the direction of the possible hive location, they transmit their rating of the location in the number of times they spin. Then they go about and find other bees doing dances for different locations, they &#039;bump&#039; those bees to say &#039;stop&#039; and the net result of all this dancing is one group of bees &#039;votes&#039; or is stimulated to act in a cluster like neurons, while inhibiting the other voting bees. Eventually one type of bee will dominate and the whole hive will have made a decision on which location to build a new hive. 

Brains do this too, neuron clusters both promote their own pattern of firing and inhibit opposing patterns of firing. Whichever cluster is reinforced the most, by learned imprints, say pleasure makes one decision more likely, and pain makes that pattern for the decision less likely. The pleasure response is usually what you choose. Unless your higher brain functions have reflected on the consequences and override pleasure in favor of pain for some reason, like unpleasant activity that leads to long term pleasure, like exercising is unpleasant, but the higher brain predicted that in the future you would be stronger or more attractive for the effort, which is a pleasurable thought. 

Thus an incredibly complex serious of yes-no-yes-no-yes-no arguments in the brain get made until the final decision is either yes or no, but that outcome is deterministic based on trillions of these interactions, what you ate this morning that fueled strong chemical synergy in one or the other neuron clusters, your memories etc.

However since we have no idea how quantum mechanics interacts in the process of brain chemistry, and since we really don&#039;t know what&#039;s actually going on with the observer effect, we really can&#039;t say much in terms of consciousness. 

So, this is one gigantic exercise in futility.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Niclas is right. Bee colonies don&#8217;t have free will, but they make choices as a colony in much the same way brains do. When choosing where to build a new hive, single bees will return to the colony with a direction to a suitable location to build, and an estimate of how well the location fits the criteria for a hive. They store and transmit this by turning and stopping in the direction of the possible hive location, they transmit their rating of the location in the number of times they spin. Then they go about and find other bees doing dances for different locations, they &#8216;bump&#8217; those bees to say &#8216;stop&#8217; and the net result of all this dancing is one group of bees &#8216;votes&#8217; or is stimulated to act in a cluster like neurons, while inhibiting the other voting bees. Eventually one type of bee will dominate and the whole hive will have made a decision on which location to build a new hive. </p>
<p>Brains do this too, neuron clusters both promote their own pattern of firing and inhibit opposing patterns of firing. Whichever cluster is reinforced the most, by learned imprints, say pleasure makes one decision more likely, and pain makes that pattern for the decision less likely. The pleasure response is usually what you choose. Unless your higher brain functions have reflected on the consequences and override pleasure in favor of pain for some reason, like unpleasant activity that leads to long term pleasure, like exercising is unpleasant, but the higher brain predicted that in the future you would be stronger or more attractive for the effort, which is a pleasurable thought. </p>
<p>Thus an incredibly complex serious of yes-no-yes-no-yes-no arguments in the brain get made until the final decision is either yes or no, but that outcome is deterministic based on trillions of these interactions, what you ate this morning that fueled strong chemical synergy in one or the other neuron clusters, your memories etc.</p>
<p>However since we have no idea how quantum mechanics interacts in the process of brain chemistry, and since we really don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s actually going on with the observer effect, we really can&#8217;t say much in terms of consciousness. </p>
<p>So, this is one gigantic exercise in futility.</p>
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		<title>By: Daphne Sylk</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/#comment-11435</link>
		<dc:creator>Daphne Sylk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2012 16:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=11978#comment-11435</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree that consciousness is not in the brain, the scientists keep looking for it there, may as well look in the attic. That said, lack of free will does not imply determinism. Neither does external consciousness allow for it, just the opposite. If I am being acted on, then I&#039;m not the actor. If there is free will, why are people so fat, smoke, drive too fast? How come everyone isn&#039;t a PhD?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that consciousness is not in the brain, the scientists keep looking for it there, may as well look in the attic. That said, lack of free will does not imply determinism. Neither does external consciousness allow for it, just the opposite. If I am being acted on, then I&#8217;m not the actor. If there is free will, why are people so fat, smoke, drive too fast? How come everyone isn&#8217;t a PhD?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Suede</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/#comment-10322</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Suede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2012 17:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=11978#comment-10322</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s OK, the feeling is mutual.

Here&#039;s some of the shit I&#039;m laughing about that comes from people like you:

http://knol.google.com/k/einstein-was-wrong-falsifying-observational-evidence-presented# ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s OK, the feeling is mutual.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s some of the shit I&#8217;m laughing about that comes from people like you:</p>
<p><a href="http://knol.google.com/k/einstein-was-wrong-falsifying-observational-evidence-presented# " rel="nofollow">http://knol.google.com/k/einstein-was-wrong-falsifying-observational-evidence-presented# </a></p>
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		<title>By: Niclas</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/#comment-10318</link>
		<dc:creator>Niclas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2012 15:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=11978#comment-10318</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ You are an idiot.

You don&#039;t know anything about math and physics and are right now the laughing stock of the physics department here. Read a fucking book.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> You are an idiot.</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t know anything about math and physics and are right now the laughing stock of the physics department here. Read a fucking book.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Michael Suede</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/#comment-10312</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Suede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 22:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=11978#comment-10312</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[1.  I never said a specific number of things do not exist so your entire argument is pointless.  

My argument is simply that if you chose a specific time in the future, then you are not at the limit of infinity.  If time runs on into infinity, then choosing the furthest point in time into the future is impossible because such a point never exists.  As soon as you pick a specific time to reference, time has extended beyond that time making it impossible to ever chose the farthest point into the future.

2.  I don&#039;t believe QM is a correct theory, I&#039;m simply pointing out what the standard theory says about the physical universe.  Clearly QM could be wrong.  I highly doubt quantum gravity theory will solve anything.  Physicists don&#039;t even understand why matter should &quot;bend space&quot; in the first place.  

Here&#039;s a tip for you:  Space doesn&#039;t bend.  Space is nothing.  Nothing can not bend.  Space is a void in which matter occupies.  Space does not have physical properties that can act upon matter.

Why so quick to dismiss determinism?  Because it is fucking retarded, that&#039;s why.  If you want to run around believing that you don&#039;t actually have free will be my guest.  Answer me this oh wise one, if I don&#039;t have free will, and you don&#039;t have free will, how is it possible that the random chemical interactions in our brains just happen to make this interaction between our two minds possible?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1.  I never said a specific number of things do not exist so your entire argument is pointless.  </p>
<p>My argument is simply that if you chose a specific time in the future, then you are not at the limit of infinity.  If time runs on into infinity, then choosing the furthest point in time into the future is impossible because such a point never exists.  As soon as you pick a specific time to reference, time has extended beyond that time making it impossible to ever chose the farthest point into the future.</p>
<p>2.  I don&#8217;t believe QM is a correct theory, I&#8217;m simply pointing out what the standard theory says about the physical universe.  Clearly QM could be wrong.  I highly doubt quantum gravity theory will solve anything.  Physicists don&#8217;t even understand why matter should &#8220;bend space&#8221; in the first place.  </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a tip for you:  Space doesn&#8217;t bend.  Space is nothing.  Nothing can not bend.  Space is a void in which matter occupies.  Space does not have physical properties that can act upon matter.</p>
<p>Why so quick to dismiss determinism?  Because it is fucking retarded, that&#8217;s why.  If you want to run around believing that you don&#8217;t actually have free will be my guest.  Answer me this oh wise one, if I don&#8217;t have free will, and you don&#8217;t have free will, how is it possible that the random chemical interactions in our brains just happen to make this interaction between our two minds possible?</p>
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		<title>By: Niclas</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/#comment-10309</link>
		<dc:creator>Niclas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 17:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=11978#comment-10309</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m a physicist and will make a longer comment about your post tonight or so. But briefly:

1. You clearly do not understand the concept of infinity. There are an infinite number of integers. By your logic the number 3 does not exist? Just because a piece of something is infinitely small does not make it non-existent. For example, lets say you have to randomly pick a real number between 0 and 1. There are an uncountable infinite number of real numbers between 0 and 1. The probability to pick any one of them is zero, yet they sum to 1. Just because the probability of, say, 0.01235 being picked is zero does not mean it doesn&#039;t exist.

2. QM, or rather QFT, is an incomplete theory. Some physicists/mathematicians, Roger Penrose for example, believe that a quantum theory of gravity will explain the measurement problem.

Furthermore, why so quick to dismiss determinism? I can&#039;t see how the world would be any different for a truly free or deterministic observer. How can you tell the difference between free will and the illusion of free will?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a physicist and will make a longer comment about your post tonight or so. But briefly:</p>
<p>1. You clearly do not understand the concept of infinity. There are an infinite number of integers. By your logic the number 3 does not exist? Just because a piece of something is infinitely small does not make it non-existent. For example, lets say you have to randomly pick a real number between 0 and 1. There are an uncountable infinite number of real numbers between 0 and 1. The probability to pick any one of them is zero, yet they sum to 1. Just because the probability of, say, 0.01235 being picked is zero does not mean it doesn&#8217;t exist.</p>
<p>2. QM, or rather QFT, is an incomplete theory. Some physicists/mathematicians, Roger Penrose for example, believe that a quantum theory of gravity will explain the measurement problem.</p>
<p>Furthermore, why so quick to dismiss determinism? I can&#8217;t see how the world would be any different for a truly free or deterministic observer. How can you tell the difference between free will and the illusion of free will?</p>
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		<title>By: Logical Proofs of Infinite External Consciousness &#124; Libertarian News &#171; ~ BLOGGER.GUNNY.G.1984+. ~ (BLOG &#38; EMAIL)</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/#comment-10214</link>
		<dc:creator>Logical Proofs of Infinite External Consciousness &#124; Libertarian News &#171; ~ BLOGGER.GUNNY.G.1984+. ~ (BLOG &#38; EMAIL)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 14:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
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