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	<title>Comments on: Fractional Reserve Banking With Bitcoins</title>
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	<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/03/09/fractional-reserve-banking-with-bitcoins/</link>
	<description>Hate The State</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 08:01:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Peter Surda</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/03/09/fractional-reserve-banking-with-bitcoins/#comment-10516</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Surda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 13:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=12468#comment-10516</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Transaction delay is not that big a problem. There are solutions for it that are not based on credit, for example transacting keys (e.g. Casascius coins, OpenTransactions) or adding new layers (e.g. green address approach).

The acceptance by market participants is the ultimate question, obviously. This is a complicated topic, because competition between payment systems is unusual. The economic term is &quot;two-sided market&quot;. Also the possibility of hybrid solutions (economic term &quot;multihoming&quot;), such as Bit-Pay allowing the merchant to receive fiat instead of bitcoin, can lead to piggybacking/hijacking.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Transaction delay is not that big a problem. There are solutions for it that are not based on credit, for example transacting keys (e.g. Casascius coins, OpenTransactions) or adding new layers (e.g. green address approach).</p>
<p>The acceptance by market participants is the ultimate question, obviously. This is a complicated topic, because competition between payment systems is unusual. The economic term is &#8220;two-sided market&#8221;. Also the possibility of hybrid solutions (economic term &#8220;multihoming&#8221;), such as Bit-Pay allowing the merchant to receive fiat instead of bitcoin, can lead to piggybacking/hijacking.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Suede</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/03/09/fractional-reserve-banking-with-bitcoins/#comment-10511</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Suede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2012 19:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=12468#comment-10511</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah its a tough call.  I agree that the solution is to  have money which does not lead to the creation of money substitutes. I&#039;m not sure if Bitcoin completely fills this bill though because of the transaction delay that is necessary to confirm a transaction - which is what I&#039;m pointing out in the article.  Tough to say.

I still think the bottom line is that if the general market retail system for products and services is established to accept bitcoins directly, it will go a long way toward preventing any kind of attempt at centralization no matter what system of banking is used.  

So far, it looks like retailers are progressing along this track, which is obviously a good thing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah its a tough call.  I agree that the solution is to  have money which does not lead to the creation of money substitutes. I&#8217;m not sure if Bitcoin completely fills this bill though because of the transaction delay that is necessary to confirm a transaction &#8211; which is what I&#8217;m pointing out in the article.  Tough to say.</p>
<p>I still think the bottom line is that if the general market retail system for products and services is established to accept bitcoins directly, it will go a long way toward preventing any kind of attempt at centralization no matter what system of banking is used.  </p>
<p>So far, it looks like retailers are progressing along this track, which is obviously a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Surda</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/03/09/fractional-reserve-banking-with-bitcoins/#comment-10510</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Surda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2012 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=12468#comment-10510</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Now that I think about it, there is a fourth way of offsetting the costs: using the deposited money proper in highly liquid financial markets, just like Bitcoinica does. I suspect that in the more distant past, this wasn&#039;t possible, so FRB won. I need to think about it a bit more.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now that I think about it, there is a fourth way of offsetting the costs: using the deposited money proper in highly liquid financial markets, just like Bitcoinica does. I suspect that in the more distant past, this wasn&#8217;t possible, so FRB won. I need to think about it a bit more.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Surda</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/03/09/fractional-reserve-banking-with-bitcoins/#comment-10509</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Surda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=12468#comment-10509</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with you in that having a fixed exchange rate would be difficult, and also that FRB leads to centralisation. I guess my point is that FRB does not come into existence magically, it must follow economic rules. With gold (and similar commodities, FRB comes to existence for these reasons:
on the demand side: there is a demand for money substitutes, because they provide something that money proper does not (see the three aforementioned points)on the supply side: money substitutes carry maintenance costs for the issuer (e.g. storage of gold) and these need to be offset somehow. The issuer can charge on holding (e.g. demurrage of bank notes), transacting (e.g. cheque clearing), or, obviously, externalise the costs through fractional reserves. From the point of view of an individual user, FRB appears to be the least costly alternative (it might or might not be when you consider inflation, I&#039;m not yet sure), so obviously, FRB wins.

Putting it together: if there is a general demand for money substitutes, this leads to FRB (unless it&#039;s illegal, then it might not). Solution: have money which does not lead to the creation of money substitutes. Bitcoin shows that at least hypothetically, this is possible. I might even go a bit further and make this statement: if on a free market money substitutes do not develop even though there is no legal or technical obstacle for them, it means that the choice of money is pareto-optimal (since no change in the monetary system leads to an increase in utility). I hope it does not sound too technocratic :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you in that having a fixed exchange rate would be difficult, and also that FRB leads to centralisation. I guess my point is that FRB does not come into existence magically, it must follow economic rules. With gold (and similar commodities, FRB comes to existence for these reasons:<br />
on the demand side: there is a demand for money substitutes, because they provide something that money proper does not (see the three aforementioned points)on the supply side: money substitutes carry maintenance costs for the issuer (e.g. storage of gold) and these need to be offset somehow. The issuer can charge on holding (e.g. demurrage of bank notes), transacting (e.g. cheque clearing), or, obviously, externalise the costs through fractional reserves. From the point of view of an individual user, FRB appears to be the least costly alternative (it might or might not be when you consider inflation, I&#8217;m not yet sure), so obviously, FRB wins.</p>
<p>Putting it together: if there is a general demand for money substitutes, this leads to FRB (unless it&#8217;s illegal, then it might not). Solution: have money which does not lead to the creation of money substitutes. Bitcoin shows that at least hypothetically, this is possible. I might even go a bit further and make this statement: if on a free market money substitutes do not develop even though there is no legal or technical obstacle for them, it means that the choice of money is pareto-optimal (since no change in the monetary system leads to an increase in utility). I hope it does not sound too technocratic <img src='http://www.libertariannews.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Michael Suede</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/03/09/fractional-reserve-banking-with-bitcoins/#comment-10508</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Suede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2012 17:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=12468#comment-10508</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;here is a second approach possible too: government fixes the exchange ratio between Bitcoin and claims on Bitcoin, fuelling the outflow of Bitcoin from the economy (Gresham&#039;s law).&quot;

That would be difficult for them to do considering that Bitcoin is an international currency.  I would simply exchange my coins for another currency and then trade those against the dollar if I really wanted to.

I&#039;m not saying that the government could, at this time, seize control of the Bitcoin economy.  I&#039;m just pointing out that fractional reserve banking leads down the path toward centralization.  I agree that all sorts of laws and regulations would need to be imposed in order to make this happen.  The question is whether people could easily by-pass those laws making centralization impossible.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;here is a second approach possible too: government fixes the exchange ratio between Bitcoin and claims on Bitcoin, fuelling the outflow of Bitcoin from the economy (Gresham&#8217;s law).&#8221;</p>
<p>That would be difficult for them to do considering that Bitcoin is an international currency.  I would simply exchange my coins for another currency and then trade those against the dollar if I really wanted to.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that the government could, at this time, seize control of the Bitcoin economy.  I&#8217;m just pointing out that fractional reserve banking leads down the path toward centralization.  I agree that all sorts of laws and regulations would need to be imposed in order to make this happen.  The question is whether people could easily by-pass those laws making centralization impossible.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Surda</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/03/09/fractional-reserve-banking-with-bitcoins/#comment-10505</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Surda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=12468#comment-10505</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello Michael,

I analyse Bitcoin FRB in my upcoming paper about Bitcoin. I don&#039;t want to paste it all here, so just a brief summary.

In order for FRB to expand the money supply, the claims to Bitcoin need to act as as a medium of exchange. I was able to determine three possible ways this can be achieved:

- reduction of transaction costs
- payment of interest
- government intervention (or other use of force)

First two can be achieved natively, without a claim to Bitcoin being a medium of exchange. Bitcoin already has low transaction costs, and there are methods of transacting it outside of the blockchain without a debt instrument. Like Casascius coins. Digitally, this can be done (if I understand it right) with OpenTransactions. There are also methods like the green-address approach, or hybrid solutions like the Bit-Pay merchant tools. With respect to interest, Bitcoinica already provides interest without offsetting it by loans: they use the deposit balance for hedging the trades. The hedging positions can be liquidated immediately, so there is no maturity mismatch. Obviously, in the end these two points are empirical and we can&#039;t predict them completely, but at least they conceptually they present obstacles for expansion of the money supply, unlike with gold/fiat.

The last one is unclear. You argue that the government can monopolise Bitcoin banks. There is a second approach possible too: government fixes the exchange ratio between Bitcoin and claims on Bitcoin, fuelling the outflow of Bitcoin from the economy (Gresham&#039;s law). In my opinion, it is difficult to do either effectively unless Bitcoin is a legal tender or at least a widely deployed medium of exchange, AND these claims on Bitcoin are already used as a medium of exchange. Otherwise, the result could simply be that people start a new blockchain and the whole effort of government would end up pointless (also the market price of the old blockchain would drop and the monopolised banks would go bankrupt). This is similar to forking of open source projects, and we see that historically it can happen despite the network effect favouring the encumbents (e.g. libreoffice vs. openoffice). Again, this is an empirical question, of unclear consequences.

So while on one hand I am a bit more pessimistic than your prior positions on Bitcoin FRB, I am also more optimistic than your current one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Michael,</p>
<p>I analyse Bitcoin FRB in my upcoming paper about Bitcoin. I don&#8217;t want to paste it all here, so just a brief summary.</p>
<p>In order for FRB to expand the money supply, the claims to Bitcoin need to act as as a medium of exchange. I was able to determine three possible ways this can be achieved:</p>
<p>- reduction of transaction costs<br />
- payment of interest<br />
- government intervention (or other use of force)</p>
<p>First two can be achieved natively, without a claim to Bitcoin being a medium of exchange. Bitcoin already has low transaction costs, and there are methods of transacting it outside of the blockchain without a debt instrument. Like Casascius coins. Digitally, this can be done (if I understand it right) with OpenTransactions. There are also methods like the green-address approach, or hybrid solutions like the Bit-Pay merchant tools. With respect to interest, Bitcoinica already provides interest without offsetting it by loans: they use the deposit balance for hedging the trades. The hedging positions can be liquidated immediately, so there is no maturity mismatch. Obviously, in the end these two points are empirical and we can&#8217;t predict them completely, but at least they conceptually they present obstacles for expansion of the money supply, unlike with gold/fiat.</p>
<p>The last one is unclear. You argue that the government can monopolise Bitcoin banks. There is a second approach possible too: government fixes the exchange ratio between Bitcoin and claims on Bitcoin, fuelling the outflow of Bitcoin from the economy (Gresham&#8217;s law). In my opinion, it is difficult to do either effectively unless Bitcoin is a legal tender or at least a widely deployed medium of exchange, AND these claims on Bitcoin are already used as a medium of exchange. Otherwise, the result could simply be that people start a new blockchain and the whole effort of government would end up pointless (also the market price of the old blockchain would drop and the monopolised banks would go bankrupt). This is similar to forking of open source projects, and we see that historically it can happen despite the network effect favouring the encumbents (e.g. libreoffice vs. openoffice). Again, this is an empirical question, of unclear consequences.</p>
<p>So while on one hand I am a bit more pessimistic than your prior positions on Bitcoin FRB, I am also more optimistic than your current one.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Suede</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/03/09/fractional-reserve-banking-with-bitcoins/#comment-10471</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Suede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2012 03:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=12468#comment-10471</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, and that&#039;s great.  But again, the problem I&#039;m specifically addressing is that redemption of those tickets becomes a problem the farther away from the community you get.  This isn&#039;t a problem for Bitcoin.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, and that&#8217;s great.  But again, the problem I&#8217;m specifically addressing is that redemption of those tickets becomes a problem the farther away from the community you get.  This isn&#8217;t a problem for Bitcoin.</p>
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		<title>By: mikeriddell62</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/03/09/fractional-reserve-banking-with-bitcoins/#comment-10469</link>
		<dc:creator>mikeriddell62</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2012 21:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=12468#comment-10469</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ Our currency is only ever earned into existence by people volunteering time to their local community. One hour generates 10 £Wigan (1,000 points). It is underpinned by the principles of timebanking and backed by time. It can be exchanged for unsold seats at sports games or for excess stock that a retailer is looking to get rid of. 

We think we have a chance of persuading the municipal authority to accept the points in part payment for local taxes. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> Our currency is only ever earned into existence by people volunteering time to their local community. One hour generates 10 £Wigan (1,000 points). It is underpinned by the principles of timebanking and backed by time. It can be exchanged for unsold seats at sports games or for excess stock that a retailer is looking to get rid of. </p>
<p>We think we have a chance of persuading the municipal authority to accept the points in part payment for local taxes. </p>
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		<title>By: Michael Suede</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/03/09/fractional-reserve-banking-with-bitcoins/#comment-10468</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Suede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2012 21:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=12468#comment-10468</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, you basically re-wrote my article LOL.  I agree with what you are saying.  What I think this means is that there is room for improvement within crypto-currencies.

The holy grail is instantaneous confirmation in a distributed ledger.  In my opinion, the development of Bitcoin should proceed in such a way as to minimize the chances of the currency being replaced by bank substitutes.  Obviously bank substitutes are highly dangerous.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, you basically re-wrote my article LOL.  I agree with what you are saying.  What I think this means is that there is room for improvement within crypto-currencies.</p>
<p>The holy grail is instantaneous confirmation in a distributed ledger.  In my opinion, the development of Bitcoin should proceed in such a way as to minimize the chances of the currency being replaced by bank substitutes.  Obviously bank substitutes are highly dangerous.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Suede</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/03/09/fractional-reserve-banking-with-bitcoins/#comment-10467</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Suede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2012 21:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=12468#comment-10467</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s an interesting thought, but I don&#039;t think any other digital currency can compete with Bitcoin because Bitcoin is a global currency.  Local currencies that have some kind of commodity backing generally have difficulty expanding the further they get from the place of issuance.  With Bitcoin, redemption is not a problem, which means it has the same value everywhere.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s an interesting thought, but I don&#8217;t think any other digital currency can compete with Bitcoin because Bitcoin is a global currency.  Local currencies that have some kind of commodity backing generally have difficulty expanding the further they get from the place of issuance.  With Bitcoin, redemption is not a problem, which means it has the same value everywhere.</p>
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