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	<title>Comments on: The Austrian School Theory to be Presented Before Congress: Gold vs. Bitcoin</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/05/08/the-austrian-school-theory-to-be-presented-before-congress-the-problems-i-see-with-herbeners-presentation/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/05/08/the-austrian-school-theory-to-be-presented-before-congress-the-problems-i-see-with-herbeners-presentation/</link>
	<description>Hate The State</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 08:01:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Dave54321</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/05/08/the-austrian-school-theory-to-be-presented-before-congress-the-problems-i-see-with-herbeners-presentation/#comment-10830</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave54321</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jun 2012 15:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=13032#comment-10830</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Suede is missing the point by a country mile. Herbener is not suggesting one should attribute an arbitrary value to gold. Take Suede&#039;s thought experiment: &quot;Imagine if all the gold in the world was used to represent the value of all the material goods in the world.&quot; Why imagine something as stupid as that? Again, no one is suggesting that gold (or anything else, for that matter) should be used to &quot;represent&quot; value. What would be the point in that? We have that right now; it&#039;s called fiat money. On the contrary, as any sane person knows, gold intrinsically has its own value, as does silver, platinum, oil, and any other number of goods. Gold happens to be one of the more stable goods when it comes to holding value.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suede is missing the point by a country mile. Herbener is not suggesting one should attribute an arbitrary value to gold. Take Suede&#8217;s thought experiment: &#8220;Imagine if all the gold in the world was used to represent the value of all the material goods in the world.&#8221; Why imagine something as stupid as that? Again, no one is suggesting that gold (or anything else, for that matter) should be used to &#8220;represent&#8221; value. What would be the point in that? We have that right now; it&#8217;s called fiat money. On the contrary, as any sane person knows, gold intrinsically has its own value, as does silver, platinum, oil, and any other number of goods. Gold happens to be one of the more stable goods when it comes to holding value.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Peter Surda</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/05/08/the-austrian-school-theory-to-be-presented-before-congress-the-problems-i-see-with-herbeners-presentation/#comment-10731</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Surda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2012 06:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=13032#comment-10731</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Francisco, you omit the transaction costs. Trade opportunities are not costless and neither is the choice of medium of exchange. Money improves transaction costs over barter, similarly money substitutes improve transaction costs over money proper. And similarly, Bitcoin improves transaction costs over the current banking system.


See Menger in Principles of Economics, Chapter 4: http://mises.org/etexts/menger/four.asp

&quot;But it is not easy to find an actual case in which an exchange operation can be performed without any economic sacrifices at all, even if they are confined only to the loss of time. Freight costs, loading charges, tolls, excise taxes, premiums for marine and other insurance, costs of correspondence, commissions and other sales costs, brokerage charges, weighages, packaging costs, storage charges, the entire cost of the commercial banking system, even the expenses of traders and all their employees, etc., are nothing but the various economic sacrifices which are required for the conduct of exchange operations and which absorb a portion of the economic gains resulting from the exploitation of existing exchange opportunities. Economic development tends to reduce these economic sacrifices, with the result that even between the most distant lands more and more economic exchanges become possible which previously could not have taken place.&quot;

140 years ago, Menger understood what Bitcoin does.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Francisco, you omit the transaction costs. Trade opportunities are not costless and neither is the choice of medium of exchange. Money improves transaction costs over barter, similarly money substitutes improve transaction costs over money proper. And similarly, Bitcoin improves transaction costs over the current banking system.</p>
<p>See Menger in Principles of Economics, Chapter 4: http://mises.org/etexts/menger/four.asp</p>
<p>&#8220;But it is not easy to find an actual case in which an exchange operation can be performed without any economic sacrifices at all, even if they are confined only to the loss of time. Freight costs, loading charges, tolls, excise taxes, premiums for marine and other insurance, costs of correspondence, commissions and other sales costs, brokerage charges, weighages, packaging costs, storage charges, the entire cost of the commercial banking system, even the expenses of traders and all their employees, etc., are nothing but the various economic sacrifices which are required for the conduct of exchange operations and which absorb a portion of the economic gains resulting from the exploitation of existing exchange opportunities. Economic development tends to reduce these economic sacrifices, with the result that even between the most distant lands more and more economic exchanges become possible which previously could not have taken place.&#8221;</p>
<p>140 years ago, Menger understood what Bitcoin does.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Michael Suede</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/05/08/the-austrian-school-theory-to-be-presented-before-congress-the-problems-i-see-with-herbeners-presentation/#comment-10729</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Suede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2012 02:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=13032#comment-10729</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What if other countries stop accepting the dollar?

What if people decided gold bricks didn&#039;t have any value to them?

What if?

What we know is that Bitcoins have value right now, and that they will most likely continue to have value into the future because of the properties that they have which allow them to act as a money.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if other countries stop accepting the dollar?</p>
<p>What if people decided gold bricks didn&#8217;t have any value to them?</p>
<p>What if?</p>
<p>What we know is that Bitcoins have value right now, and that they will most likely continue to have value into the future because of the properties that they have which allow them to act as a money.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Hank Rearden</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/05/08/the-austrian-school-theory-to-be-presented-before-congress-the-problems-i-see-with-herbeners-presentation/#comment-10728</link>
		<dc:creator>Hank Rearden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2012 02:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=13032#comment-10728</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[They do entitle you to a claim on something of value.  They entitle you 
to any good or service being offered by a vendor who accepts Bitcoin as a
 payment.

What if they stop accepting it?  Bitcoin is evidence of the incredible confusion that exist between fiduciary media and real money.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They do entitle you to a claim on something of value.  They entitle you<br />
to any good or service being offered by a vendor who accepts Bitcoin as a<br />
 payment.</p>
<p>What if they stop accepting it?  Bitcoin is evidence of the incredible confusion that exist between fiduciary media and real money.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Peter Surda</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/05/08/the-austrian-school-theory-to-be-presented-before-congress-the-problems-i-see-with-herbeners-presentation/#comment-10725</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Surda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 12:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=13032#comment-10725</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Money is the most liquid good. Whether you like it or not, Bitcoin is already highly liquid, and as long as it continues to have low transaction costs and there are no challengers, it will probably become more and more liquid. Bitcoin is already more liquid than many forms of fiat currencies.

Gold only has low transaction costs if there are no money substitutes. On a free market, it can only win if the financial system collapses completely, there are no banks anymore and the fiat currencies are abandoned in hyperinflation, in large parts of the world simultaneously. If merely the central bank stops printing money and the legal tender laws are lifted, that does not give gold sufficient advantage. If this happens only in one country, the currencies from will be the ones with lowest transaction costs. Recently in countries where this happened, such as Iraq or Somalia, the local currency was not replaced with gold. It was only supplemented by other currencies, but still remains in use. In Zimbabwe, their hyperinflated currency, was replaced on markets by currencies from other countries, not with gold.

Bitcoin however can easily compete on transaction costs with the digital and paper forms of money.

The Austrian story of the origin of money (AKA Mises&#039; Regression Theorem) only works as an explanation of how money develops from barter, and how fiat money develops from commodity money. It doesn&#039;t work well if it has to explain why money A is replaced by money B on a free market. The choice of money is driven by transaction costs, not by &quot;backing&quot; or &quot;intrinsic value&quot; or any such nonpraxeological terms. Money evolves from barter because it lowers transaction costs. Money substitutes evolve because they lower transaction costs. Similarly, Bitcoin evolved to a medium of exchange because it lowers transaction costs. Maybe it will evolve into money, maybe it won&#039;t. But it does not look very rosy for gold. While it might remain to be used as a store of value, I am skeptical about it being able to compete as a medium of exchange.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Money is the most liquid good. Whether you like it or not, Bitcoin is already highly liquid, and as long as it continues to have low transaction costs and there are no challengers, it will probably become more and more liquid. Bitcoin is already more liquid than many forms of fiat currencies.</p>
<p>Gold only has low transaction costs if there are no money substitutes. On a free market, it can only win if the financial system collapses completely, there are no banks anymore and the fiat currencies are abandoned in hyperinflation, in large parts of the world simultaneously. If merely the central bank stops printing money and the legal tender laws are lifted, that does not give gold sufficient advantage. If this happens only in one country, the currencies from will be the ones with lowest transaction costs. Recently in countries where this happened, such as Iraq or Somalia, the local currency was not replaced with gold. It was only supplemented by other currencies, but still remains in use. In Zimbabwe, their hyperinflated currency, was replaced on markets by currencies from other countries, not with gold.</p>
<p>Bitcoin however can easily compete on transaction costs with the digital and paper forms of money.</p>
<p>The Austrian story of the origin of money (AKA Mises&#8217; Regression Theorem) only works as an explanation of how money develops from barter, and how fiat money develops from commodity money. It doesn&#8217;t work well if it has to explain why money A is replaced by money B on a free market. The choice of money is driven by transaction costs, not by &#8220;backing&#8221; or &#8220;intrinsic value&#8221; or any such nonpraxeological terms. Money evolves from barter because it lowers transaction costs. Money substitutes evolve because they lower transaction costs. Similarly, Bitcoin evolved to a medium of exchange because it lowers transaction costs. Maybe it will evolve into money, maybe it won&#8217;t. But it does not look very rosy for gold. While it might remain to be used as a store of value, I am skeptical about it being able to compete as a medium of exchange.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: lollerskaterz</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/05/08/the-austrian-school-theory-to-be-presented-before-congress-the-problems-i-see-with-herbeners-presentation/#comment-10724</link>
		<dc:creator>lollerskaterz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 10:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=13032#comment-10724</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well this is only theoretical masturbation. Nobody knows what will win out in a free market. The most important thing is that you both agree on method of selecting the best one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well this is only theoretical masturbation. Nobody knows what will win out in a free market. The most important thing is that you both agree on method of selecting the best one.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Michael Suede</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/05/08/the-austrian-school-theory-to-be-presented-before-congress-the-problems-i-see-with-herbeners-presentation/#comment-10723</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Suede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 03:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=13032#comment-10723</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[They do entitle you to a claim on something of value.  They entitle you to any good or service being offered by a vendor who accepts Bitcoin as a payment.

I&#039;ve written extensively on this topic, so you can find out why you are wrong by simply looking at the Bitcoin category of posts on this blog.

The fact that a single Bitcoin is worth five fiat dollars demonstrates that Bitcoins have value because the market says they have value.  Therefore, any assertion that Bitcoins don&#039;t have value is proven to be false on its face.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They do entitle you to a claim on something of value.  They entitle you to any good or service being offered by a vendor who accepts Bitcoin as a payment.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve written extensively on this topic, so you can find out why you are wrong by simply looking at the Bitcoin category of posts on this blog.</p>
<p>The fact that a single Bitcoin is worth five fiat dollars demonstrates that Bitcoins have value because the market says they have value.  Therefore, any assertion that Bitcoins don&#8217;t have value is proven to be false on its face.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Francisco d'Anconia</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/05/08/the-austrian-school-theory-to-be-presented-before-congress-the-problems-i-see-with-herbeners-presentation/#comment-10722</link>
		<dc:creator>Francisco d'Anconia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 02:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=13032#comment-10722</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The proponents of Bitcoin do not understand what money is.  Money is first and foremost a store of value.  Given the choice in a free market of Fiat Money, Bitcoin, Gold, Silver, Copper, Nickel, Platinum or storage certificates for commodities such as sugar, automobile tires etc.  In a free market Gold will be only one of the possible moneys out there.  I wouldn&#039;t be betting on digital currencies that does not at the very least entitle me to a claim on something of value!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The proponents of Bitcoin do not understand what money is.  Money is first and foremost a store of value.  Given the choice in a free market of Fiat Money, Bitcoin, Gold, Silver, Copper, Nickel, Platinum or storage certificates for commodities such as sugar, automobile tires etc.  In a free market Gold will be only one of the possible moneys out there.  I wouldn&#8217;t be betting on digital currencies that does not at the very least entitle me to a claim on something of value!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Iambinarymind</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/05/08/the-austrian-school-theory-to-be-presented-before-congress-the-problems-i-see-with-herbeners-presentation/#comment-10713</link>
		<dc:creator>Iambinarymind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 19:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=13032#comment-10713</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Allow competing currencies in a free market.  Let the market decide.  Of course there&#039;s no reason there has to be one main currency.  We must remove the violence from the equation.  Abolish the State.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Allow competing currencies in a free market.  Let the market decide.  Of course there&#8217;s no reason there has to be one main currency.  We must remove the violence from the equation.  Abolish the State.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: The Austrian School Theory to be Presented Before Congress: The &#8230; &#124; BitJack21 Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/05/08/the-austrian-school-theory-to-be-presented-before-congress-the-problems-i-see-with-herbeners-presentation/#comment-10711</link>
		<dc:creator>The Austrian School Theory to be Presented Before Congress: The &#8230; &#124; BitJack21 Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 19:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libertariannews.org/?p=13032#comment-10711</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] this article: The Austrian School Theory to be Presented Before Congress: The &#8230;     [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this article: The Austrian School Theory to be Presented Before Congress: The &#8230;     [...]</p>
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