The Saturated Fat Studies: Set Up to Fail

Have you ever seen studies claiming that dietary cholesterol and saturated fat have no correlation to heart disease?  Dr. Michael Greger explains how we’ve known since 1979 that cross-sectional population studies will unavoidably show a zero correlation between diet and heart disease because of the large differences between individual cholesterol levels.  Cross-sectional studies lack the statistical power to show a correlation, which is why the vast bulk of evidence linking heart disease to diet comes from metabolic ward and free living dietary change experiments.

 

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  • Gamer Gamer

    The problem with your analysis is, you think there is a correlation between heart attack and high level of cholesterol. this has never been proven whatsoever. Now you’re analysis is correct that taking fat will increase cholesterol, but it just means our liver will have to produce less. Cholesterol is probably the most precious molecule in the human body.

    • I’m confused. We’ve known since the Farmingham study conducted back in 1948 that high cholesterol is inextricably linked to the development of heart disease. In fact, Ornish published back in 1998 how to reverse heart disease with a vegan diet.

      http://www.ornishspectrum.com/wp-content/uploads/Intensive-lifestyle-changes-for-reversal-of-coronary-heart-disease1.pdf

      Heart disease is a completely avoidable and reversible condition, and it is caused entirely by the consumption of saturated animal fats and cholesterol.

      While it may be that cholesterol is the most precious molecule in the human body, the human body is designed to make all the cholesterol it will ever need on its own.

      • Gamer Gamer

        i know of that study, the problem with it is simple. they found cholesterol in clogged arteries and drew the conclusion cholesterol was the culprit. it turns out, it is not. Lesions are. Cholesterol you see, repairs our body tissues, whether it is skin or arterial walls.

        Lowering cholesterol with a drug will increase risk of diabetes ( i.e. statins) Our body is intelligent, it will always produce the amount of cholesterol that is required to maintain good health. If cholesterol goes higher in a blood test, it simply means the body is repairing itself or is under high level of stress, whether chemical, physical or emotional.

        Heart disease is not linked to high cholesterol. heart diseases are linked to bad diet for sure, but also and not limited to high level of stress, smoking, lack of exercises and the sympathetic nervous system simply stopping to work.

        there is no science behind lowering cholesterol level in any studies done, on human longevity or effect on their health.

        Hypercholesterolemia is an invented disease by pharmaceutical companies to sell drug lowering cholesterol -statins – which is a HUGE market right now, tho hopefully in decline.

        If cholesterol clogged arteries of the heart, it would probably – out of logic- clog veins and arteries elsewhere, which is not the case.

        In fact, a study in France determined that elderly
        women with very high cholesterol live the longest, and that the death rate was 5 times higher for
        women who had low cholesterol than high cholesterol. [1,2]

        No life on earth can exist without cholesterol.
        In a study of 3700 people, low cholesterol was also associated with hemorrhagic-type stroke. Patients with cholesterol below 180 were found to have twice the risk of that type of stroke as people with cholesterol above 230. [5] However, the same study found that people with cholesterol above 280 had twice the risk of the other kind of stroke, ischemic stroke, as someone with total cholesterol of 230.

        • You’re funny. I just linked you a study where they reversed heart disease in an entire group of patients by eliminating cholesterol from the diet. I mean that’s pretty remarkable given your claim that dietary cholesterol has nothing to do with clogged arteries, wouldn’t you say?

          As for dietary cholesterol clogging other arteries, it does. This is why erectile dysfunction is a primary indicator of heart disease.

          http://www.webmd.com/erectile-dysfunction/news/20130129/erectile-dysfunction-may-signal-hidden-heart-disease

          • Gamer Gamer

            what reversed heart disease is not the lower cholesterol, but the healthier food. A plant based diet helps the body heal the arteries along with cholesterol. Lesions in arteries are caused by a toxic blood and way of life, which is easy to correct. Eating green is one sure way to do it.

            you want study that says cholesterol is the culprit? look what is published and financed by pharmaceutical companies. you want studies that say it doesn’t? look what retired doctors are saying and the book they are writing. there are many studies on both side of the camp.

            as for i am funny, thank you!

            here is an article among a thousand:
            http://www.spacedoc.com/articles/cholesterol-is-not-the-culprit

          • You didn’t link me a study, you linked me to a book promo written by a 100 year old senile biochemist. I just showed you that heart disease can be reversed by eliminating dietary cholesterol from the diet. If you can find me a study where they document the reversal of heart disease using angiograms, while feeding people a diet loaded with cholesterol, I’ll shut up and even begin eating meat again.

          • Gamer Gamer

            meanwhile you could read this:
            http://www.sott.net/article/242516-Heart-surgeon-speaks-out-on-what-really-causes-heart-disease

            i’ll find you a couple of studies.

          • Again, no studies cited. Just random bullshit.

            This guy claims heart disease is caused by inflammation. He says, “What are the biggest culprits of chronic inflammation? Quite simply, they are the overload of simple, highly processed carbohydrates (sugar, flour and all the products made from them) and the excess consumption of omega-6 vegetable oils like soybean, corn and sunflower that are found in many processed foods. ”

            I find that to be pretty remarkable, given that I eat a diet entirely composed of sugar, carbs and plant oil, yet my lab results have dramatically improved since going vegan. And my mother managed to completely cure herself of diabetes, arthritis and high blood pressure by going vegan with me.

            You can see my lab results here:

            https://www.libertariannews.org/2016/01/12/blood-test-results-one-year-later/

            Oh, and my mom dropped 40 lbs without any calorie counting.

          • Gamer Gamer

            random bullshit?
            have you heard of Tim Noakes?

            its normal to lose weight if you add more veggies to your diet and remove the bad and unhealthy fat or processed sugar.

          • I’ve heard of him and seen his presentation. He uses epidemiological studies to prove his point, which I just showed you don’t work. Never once does he present a medical ward study or dietary change experiment where people are fed a diet high in cholesterol while reversing heart disease.

            He also goes on and on about carbohydrate based fat creation, which is actually not a big deal at all if you know all the facts behind it. He leaves out some very important information about it in his lecture. I did a detailed article on that subject here:

            https://www.libertariannews.org/2015/10/29/the-real-story-on-burning-fat-and-losing-weight-what-you-may-not-know-about-glycogen/

            My mother and I lost a ton of weight by eating mountains of carbs every day.

          • Gamer Gamer

            very interesting article! well i guess human beings react differently to all kind of food we eat. I for one, if i eat a lot of carbs i gain weight, lot of meat? nope i stay the same. So i try to eat a little of everything and i still see my 6 packs.

            Back to cholesterol…

          • Hey, you can convert me into a carnivore right now. Just show me a dietary change experiment where they put people on a diet loaded with cholesterol and reverse heart disease. I showed you one where they did just that by using a vegan diet.

          • Gamer Gamer

            like i wrote, a vegan diet should reverse heart disease and should heal the arterial walls. not because it lower cholesterol, but because it is healthy for our body. i’ll tell you what, stick to a plant based diet but add a healthy amount of saturated fats, like coconut oil and butter made from grass fed cows (cows raised without antibiotics and growth hormones) and your arteries will be fine. no blood test will show you that tho. we need a camera taking a picture or filming arteries before and after. then add a lot of poly insaturated fats and and unhealthy saturated fats, processed sugars and general junk food and take a picture again of the arteries.

          • I think I’ll skip your sage advice, given that I’ve read a few thousand studies which say that is a bad idea. Show me a study, I don’t go off of blind faith.

          • Gamer Gamer

            here, one study:
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3361290/

            “The results indicate higher mortality among older people with lower levels of total cholesterol. Furthermore, they show no association between all-cause mortality and hypercholesterolemia, high LDL-c, low HDL-c, hypertriglyceridemia, and high non-HDL-c in this group of older adults.”

          • That’s not what I asked for. I asked for a dietary change study where they put people on a high cholesterol diet and reversed heart disease, proven by angiography.

            The study on the elderly didn’t control for a host of risk factors, such as smoking, cholesterol medication, etc.. and the mortality could have been due a number of other factors, as is acknowledged in the study itself.

            And again, you’re giving me blog posts with that NYT article. The video in the OP explains why those epidemiological studies cited in the NYT article are worthless.

          • Gamer Gamer

            i am not sure what would ever convince you, since people who die of heart attack, at least 50% of them, have “normal” level of cholesterol. of course, there is no such thing as normal level of cholesterol, or the invented disease hyper cholesterolemia.

            and about eating meat, human beings have been eating meat since…hmmm…ever. the Sioux hunted buffaloes and ate all the parts and i doubt they suffered from heart diseases due to their eating habits, lol.

            Since you went on a vegan diet and lowered your cholesterol, you seem to think you are magically protected form CAD. Believe what you want. i will stick to healthy fats and organic healthy veggies. both my grand mothers lived to 90 and ate a LOT of fat. So does the amish people by the way, and their rate of CAD is not higher than the rest of us…

          • I just told you what would convince me. Show me a dietary change experiment where they put people on a high cholesterol diet and reverse heart disease, proven by angiography. It’s pretty simple.

            I already explained why those studies are garbage. Not only are epidemiological studies useless, but half of people who drop dead of a heart attack have no prior warning signs and “normal” cholesterol levels. That’s because “normal” is still far too high. Heart disease doesn’t cease to be an issue until cholesterol levels are below 150. People with a cholesterol of 170 are still at risk.

          • Gamer Gamer

            you are like saying, since we find white blood cells in people with auto immune disease, we should lower their total white blood cells count, and their auto immune disease would go away. cholesterol is not the culprit. we can agree to disagree, but how do you explain that many people live into their 90s eating fat and red meat? without ever having any cad? if high cholesterol was a killer, it would clog little arteries before the big ones my logic tells me, we would walk with black fingers and have rotten limbs everywhere.

            as far the study you want to find, i would not personally finance it because i dont see a link in the first place. i wonder if there is one. why don’t you do it? blood tests are useless. we have to see the arterial walls of a real person before and after. its the only way to examine if “low, normal. high” TC have any effect on arteries’ lesions.

          • We know that heart disease ceases to be an issue with a total cholesterol under 150. Dr. Greger cites an example of rural Africans who hardly consumed any meat or dairy as an example.

            http://nutritionfacts.org/2014/11/11/we-can-end-the-heart-disease-epidemic/

            “Maybe the Africans were just dying early of other diseases and so never lived long enough to get heart disease? No. In the video One in a Thousand: Ending the Heart Disease Epidemic, you can see the age-matched heart attack rates in Uganda versus St. Louis. Out of 632 autopsies in Uganda, only one myocardial infarction. Out of 632 Missourians—with the same age and gender distribution—there were 136 myocardial infarctions. More than 100 times the rate of our number one killer. In fact, researchers were so blown away that they decided to do another 800 autopsies in Uganda. Still, just that one small healed infarct (meaning it wasn’t even the cause of death) out of 1,427 patients. Less than one in a thousand, whereas in the U.S., it’s an epidemic.”

            High cholesterol does clog arteries throughout the body. I already showed you that erectile dysfunction is directly linked to heart disease. Atherosclerosis is also linked to blockages to arteries that feed disks in the back, which can cause disk degeneration.

            And I know that you can’t find the study I’m asking for because no such study exists, nor will it ever exist, because feeding people a diet high in cholesterol will cause heart disease, not cure it.

          • Gamer Gamer

            Again, its the healthy diet that gives them healthy arteries, not the low cholesterol…high C does not clog arteries throughout the body, lesions are the cause. Westerners, especially in USA do not eat enough of vegetables, fruits, nuts and so on.

            Everywhere in our body where a part is damage, we will find cholesterol, because that is how we repair ourselves. we have to look at the CAUSE of those lesions, and Cholesterol is not the cause, it doesn’t create lesions, it repairs them or try to.

          • Where the hell are you getting this absurd idea that cholesterol doesn’t clog arteries throughout the body? I mean even Wiki has it in plain text:

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atherosclerosis

            “Another common scenario in very advanced disease is claudicationfrom insufficient blood supply to the legs. Atherosclerosis affects the entire artery tree, but mostly larger, high-pressure vessels such as the coronary, renal, femoral, cerebral, and carotid arteries. These are termed “clinically silent” because the person having the infarction does not notice the problem and does not seek medical help, or when they do, physicians do not recognize what has happened.”

            We know that people who eat a cholesterol and saturated fat free diet do not – EVER – develop heart disease. And we know that eating a vegan diet will reverse heart disease. So yeah, a healthy diet will give people healthy arteries, and a healthy diet is a diet that has no cholesterol in it.

          • Gamer Gamer

            wiki ok lol. may as well quote me pharmaceutical representatives about the effect of High Cholesterol…and that we should all be on statins.

            i gave you 2 examples in my family of meat and fat eater who never developed cad and live to their 90s. its worth just as much as rural Africans, which i bet didnt live as long as them.

            As for Cholesterol, the idea it clogs arteries came from those autopsies where they found plaques like 60 years ago and concluded it was the culprit…total non-sense tho. In fact im pretty sure lowering cholesterol on purpose will lead to muscles pain, alzheimer, brain diseases and a lot more.

          • I’m sure your relatives had extensive atherosclerosis, it just didn’t manifest itself into visible symptoms. That’s why it’s called the silent killer.

          • Gamer Gamer

            so all the elderly i know who eat meat and fat have extensive atherosclerosis? nonsense. Lesions are caused by a toxic lifestyle and diet, not cholesterol.

          • Most 10 year-olds in America have extensive atherosclerosis, so I’m sure your relatives did too. Just because there are no warning signs doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812791/

            “Attention was first drawn to the early origin of atherosclerosis by an autopsy study conducted on young soldiers killed in the Korean War.2) Their average age was 22 years, and over 70% of them had evidence of atherosclerosis in their coronary arteries. Postmortem coronary angiography and dissection of hearts from 105 United States soldiers killed in Vietnam demonstrated that 45% had some evidence of atherosclerosis and 5% had gross evidence of severe coronary atherosclerosis.3) Another study demonstrated a very high incidence of lipid-laden macrophages in the intima of the aorta and coronary arteries of young American children killed in motor accidents, with over 50% of children aged 10-14 years having some evidence of early atherosclerosis.4)”

          • Gamer Gamer

            and? how is cholesterol related to this?

          • Yeah, the toxicity is called saturated fat and cholesterol. Hundreds of dietary change and metabolic medical ward experiments have been done to confirm this fact. It has been proven that when you remove cholesterol and saturated fat from the diet, heart disease is reversed. There is no question that cholesterol and saturated fat are to blame.

            The controversy over saturated fat and cholesterol is purely manufactured nonsense by doctors who have no business giving dietary advice. Most doctors receive less than 10 hours of nutrition training during their schooling. In other words, I know about 300 to 400 times more about nutrition than your average doctor.

          • Gamer Gamer

            ok.

          • It’s unfortunate that people write articles like that, sowing confusion among the less educated.

            The problems with those studies are all very subtle. Like the egg experiment where he starts off with 1 egg instead of a zero cholesterol base line. Or the studies on the elderly that use a 160 TC as a low marker instead of 150, and a host of possible confounding factors that aren’t considered. Or the choice of following a low cholesterol group who had already been diagnosed with heart disease as a test sample.

            Most of those studies admit to their shortcomings right in the studies themselves, but those warnings are ignored by the author of those articles.

            The fact you have to resort to quoting obscure websites to back your case is a testimony to how weak the arguments are.

          • Gamer Gamer

            if i think they have it all wrong? certainly. there is 0 doubt in my mind and the studies i looked at. You blame all the authors i linked for shortcomings, but the one you cited are full of it too. no studies are perfect. and in this last link you had what you wanted angiography of people with high cholesterol and no evidence of higher CAD. In fact all the elderly 65+ lived the longest when they had higher TC. the truth is slowly coming out, why north Americans are sick? its because of Agencies like the ones you quoted, that have promoted a low fat, high carb diet, and made everyone sick with it. Polyunsaturated fat and oil are dangerous, just like sugar and carbs in general.

            People need to go back on a diet exempt of pesticides, herbicides, growth hormones & antibiotics. And doctors should stop being legal pushers. Rx drugs kill way too many people every year, and i am not touching medical errors.

          • I know I’m right because I can see the results with my own two eyes. I can see my own cholesterol change and I can see my mother cure herself. Did Dr. Ravnskov show you how to reverse heart disease? Did Dr. Ravnskov show you how to reverse diabetes? Did Dr. Ravnskov show you how to cure arthritis? Did Dr. Ravnskov show you how to reverse erectile dysfunction? Obviously not.

          • Gamer Gamer

            probably because you started to eat a lot of fruits and vegetables. thats what vegetables do, they heal and keep us healthy.

          • I love how you just make assumptions about what I eat when I already told you what I eat. I eat a shit ton of carbs and fat. I eat vegan burgers, I eat rice and beans, I eat bean/rice burritos with avocado and vegan sour cream, I eat vegan pizzas with vegan ranch, I eat french fries, I eat baked potatoes with vegan butter, I eat vegan chicken nuggets, I eat nuts, I eat seeds, I eat bagels with vegan cream cheese, I eat dark chocolate, I eat all sorts of shit that doesn’t classify as health food but my numbers keep getting better every day.

            The improvements in my cholesterol and blood sugar have nothing to do with fruits, but I suppose if you classify rice, potatoes, beans, pasta, soy and wheat as vegetables you’d be right. However, I doubt that’s what you’re talking about.

            Don’t tell me what I eat, I know what I eat, and I have the blood tests to prove the results.

          • Gamer Gamer

            yes but a blood test wont show you how healthy your arteries are, that’s the problem. Also you cant deny all the studies done, showing one after one, that in the elderly group (you know those usually most at risk of CAD), those with high TC live the longest, simply because you find the shortcomings that fits your bias.

            as a side note, Tim Noakes said that his high carbs, low fat diet is responsible for him developing diabetes.

          • Tim Noakes is obviously an idiot, since my fasting glucose has dropped all the way down to an 82 while eating a diet of nothing but carbs, and my mom completely cured her diabetes eating the same shit. Of course, it’s not just myself and my mother, there have been numerous studies done on this as well. Go watch Forks Over Knives on Netflix to see the changes first hand.

            As for the elderly studies, they show that in very old people, low cholesterol may indicate underlying problems unrelated to heart disease. It may be that certain diseases or conditions bring total cholesterol down regardless of diet. It is simply impossible to know what caused the low cholesterol in those studies. We don’t know if the low cholesterol was caused by diet or if it was caused by an underlying condition. To know the difference, people have to be separated out by dietary types.

            Low and behold, when we separate old people out by diet, people on a vegan diet have the lowest all cause mortality!

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23836264

            Ever hear of blue zones? The Adventists in CA live the longest out of anyone on the planet, because the Adventist religion forbids consuming meat.

          • Gamer Gamer

            “Low and behold, when we separate old people out by diet, people on a vegan diet have the lowest all cause mortality!”

            i would agree with this cos it has nothing to do with TC.

            no, never heard of the religious zealots in CA, i could look into it.

          • You’re crazy.

          • Gamer Gamer

            “”Adventists have approximately the same proportion of people who die of cancer or heart disease or stroke, but the age that they get diagnosed is much later,” he said.”

            lol

            of course a community living healthily, caring for each other will live longer. why? because its less stressful, people can share their problems, and they have a common goal. etc.

          • We all have to die some day. The question is whether you want to go out in your 60s incapacitated by heart disease, diabetes, stroke, etc.. or die in your late 80s completely healthy until a sudden illness strikes you down.

          • Gamer Gamer

            i agree. and so far no studies whatsoever has been able to show that people with low Cholesterol live the longest, in fact its the opposite.

          • I just showed you, people who eat a vegan diet live the longest. By definition, they have low cholesterol levels. I also explained to you why those other studies don’t mean anything when it comes to what people should be eating. You seem incapable of grasping the difference.

          • Gamer Gamer

            and your Adventists folks have heart attacks & strokes, with a meatless diet.

            what you dont seem to understand is if you compared 2 healthy diets, one vegan and one, say paleo or Mediterranean, life expectancy is the same.

          • No, life expectancy is not the same. I just showed you the largest comparative dietary study in the history of the world saying otherwise. And it’s not just the AHS study, there’s also the Oxford EPIC and WHO studies to support this as well.

          • Gamer Gamer

            and i showed you plenty of study showing you that high TC in elderly make them live longer, especially those between 200-230 range

            this article sums up a lot of absurd “truths” vegans have taken for their bible
            http://authoritynutrition.com/top-9-biggest-lies-about-dietary-fat-and-cholesterol/

            http://authoritynutrition.com/top-11-biggest-lies-about-vegan-diets/

          • Yeah, and you’re assuming diet is responsible for those low TC levels. It probably isn’t, given that the largest comparative dietary studies ever conducted say that people with a low cholesterol diet live the longest.

          • Gamer Gamer
          • Pretty bad research, given my own blood tests.

            Actually, high carb beats low carb for weight loss.

            http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-low-fat-carb-diets-20150813-story.html

          • Gamer Gamer

            did you read the 10 pages pdf? it says following the recommendations of the diet for the past 30-40 years, American got sicker, bigger and fat, and with rampant diabetes.

            you gonna deny this too? based on shortcomings?

            the article you linked says:
            “In the end, the obese subjects lost weight regardless of which diet they were on (and low-carb dieters lost a little over a pound more than did low-fat dieters over two weeks). But obese subjects on a low-fat diet lost more body fat than did those on a diet low in carbohydrates.”

            “”Our study suggests it’s probably the calories in a diet that matter much more than the carbohydrates or the fat,” Hall said. Getting those calories down–and keeping them down for the long haul–is the key challenge for dieters, he added.”

            2 weeks and the rest on a computer software to predict…kind of weak for a study.

            the article i linked you http://www.dietdoctor.com/new-major-study-a-low-carb-diet-yet-again-best-for-both-weight-and-health-markers

            is a 1 year study

            “What will upset people the most is that the low-carb group also got better cholesterol levels than those in the low-fat group! As usual, they got more of the good HDL
            cholesterol, lower triglycerides and an improved cholesterol profile (total/HDL). As if this wasn’t enough, the fat eaters in the low-carb group received a significantly lower risk assessment for heart disease according to the 10-year Framingham risk score!”

          • Less than 1% of Americans eat a vegan diet. It’s absurd to say a vegan diet is responsible for that. As for the study, they didn’t test against a vegan diet, so it’s little wonder the low carb got better scores. As I said, it doesn’t matter. If your total cholesterol is above 150, you’re still at risk.

          • Gamer Gamer

            well, i think i provided enough studies to show you to contrary. especially those that says they can’t find a relation between high or low cholesterol and CAD. Plus those that show high TC gives people better health and longevity. Like my 2 grand mothers and many others who have lived into their 90s eating meat and fat along with their veggies.

            so, anyways thank you for your time and debates and the links you provided.